What Julie Anne is saying is also elaborated by Christa Brown in chapter 46 of her book This Little Light as well as here: http://www.stopbaptistpredators.org/ravagedfaith.html. And when you [Calvinists whom he is addressing] quote Charles Spurgeons words equating Calvinism and the gospel (a place where I believe the great Spurgeon got it wrong), you are not saying that those of us who do not subscribe to all the points of Calvinism fail to believe the gospel. A lot of people (hostile atheists especially) like to frame the whole ordeal as in, How mean or wrong it was of God to make that forbidden fruit tree when he knew Adam and Eve would eat from it, but the guy pointed out thats the not the way to look at it. The person who said this will one day stand before God and have to explain why hepronouncedyou, a child of God who is now standing withthe throngs of heaven with a crown on your head, a non-Christian. Grabs your hand and raises your arm & enthusiastically shows you off as The winner and still the champ! Feels your joy with you. But to have to constantly think, Must remember its for Gods glory is sheer legalism and bondage. At any rate, the point is that I agree with you (even though I disagree that TULIP is slanderous) that when we start elevating these doctrines to first tier issues, we are causing division within the body. The promises are over the top. Some of the formers non- above-board activities may be partly an outgrowth of his beliefs. Instead, you consider this shorthand for biblical Christianity. Hmm Apostles and Nicene, indeedy-do. My hubby got his first spiritual stirrings while watching a live performance of, Jesus Christ Superstar. I dont want to convince anyone of a certain brand of Christianity. and can find no basis for a distinction between Calvinism and Hyper-Calvinism. (LogOut/ Everything. Yet, somewhere after the third paragraph, this young, rudderless teen stopped reading, glanced over at Star Trek on the television, began to cry, whispered, I believe and crossed that final frontier from unbelief into belief. One of the problems in these conversatiosn is that some Calvinists will say, Cal does not teach X!, and maybe it does not(? The Calvinist thought process is: God has foreordained every word I say, therefore, I cannot be wrong. 8520 / YR. New Geneva Theological Seminary - Colorado. Why isnt it simple, like the works of John Owen and Jonathan Edwards? They are his laws; they are not independent in nature. He isnt at cross-purposes with Himself, so the question is silly. Although I had been churched, I had rarely opened my Bible. I think a better question would be: Why should He want to stop me? Carson Tim Challies Francis Chan (commonly referred to as "Calvinist Light") Matt Chandler Vincent Cheung Ray Comfort Tim Conway Mark Dever Kevin DeYoung Mark Driscoll Ligon Duncan I think many. If I had to pick one thing about them that signals danger to me, though, it would be what they dont act on, which is all those chickified wishy-washy decaffy gay things Jesus (and subsequently the apostles) said about love being The Main Thing. I watched past the first 15 minutes to watch the whole thing, and the video host quotes Calvinists at many times (showing their quotes typed up on the screen), and some of the Cals he quoted do believe God is the author of evil. Never mind those 2400+ pages of Perfectly-Parsed Theology also stem from the same base assumptions about God as Mohammed that Gods Omnipotent Will overrides everything else about God, never mind physical reality. I liked that. Did you see my comment in the post about a nice Calvinist? Need I say that an airtight perfect system spanning 2400+ pages and written by a young lawyer smacks of know-it-all with a bit of OCD? That also struck me and started me thinking. For there, we will still be the created and He will still be the Creator. To give a sense of scale for word count well over 600,000: Rule of thumb for both manuscript format and mass-market paperback is 250 words/page. You might argue that with only a little bacteria, you might only get sick, but not die. My hubby got his first spiritual stirrings while watching a live performance of, Jesus Christ Superstar. Jeff as the saying goes: may all your tribes increase. At least in Christianity, we have a God who did not allow us to suffer alone, but participated in experiencing the effects of evil. ), The best treatment of this question Ive read is by John Piper, so Im not sure youd want to read it. The bullying was behind the scenes. I was drawn to the faith forseveral years due to my reading as well as viewing Billy Graham on the television. Even just lurking at blogs or forums and watching people debate the topic, Id see this come up a lot, where most Calvinists would claim that the one criticizing, or questioning, Calvinism doesnt understand Calvinism. Buuuuuut the problem with this is that trying to pin a Calvinist down on what doctrines they actually believe is like trying to hold a wriggling cat using hands stuck in oven mitts (not that wed be putting the cat in the overgross, and, uh, cruel). Jeff S (and B for that matter), you sound like a good and kind man and a thoughtful speaker. Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in: You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. It bothered me a whole lot (and she and I talked about it via email), but it also crystallized some things for me. Here is a link to a chart comparing Calvinism to Arminianism. I think the way to achieve this is to leave Calvin/theology out entirely and instead actively love/listen/show compassion. Craig Keener 25. Eventually I became a Christian during an episode of Star Trek while reading a LifeMagazine article about "The Groovy Christians of Rye, New York." Yet again! People, including you, got upset from Calvinists just stating their views. Yet looking at a book's cover, or even . https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Arminian_denominations. This really frustrates me a lot. The promises are over the top. We will briefly survey these five points of disagreement and . We are glad that you do. He is noted for a broad view of what constitutes Protestant "orthodoxy." I do think though, there is a difference between a Calvinist and a Calvinista. Hes describing man, not God. Im not doubting what you say, but PLEASE (and this goes for everyone) try to document this type of thing. I much prefer interacting with the Holy Spirit and reading Scripture. Oy. As Ive said, the idea that evil exists at all with an all powerful and good God troubles me, and I do not have an answer for it. God forbid. @ JeffB: Been there, done that, have the scars (healing, but still) to prove it! This way of thinking goes against what Calvin said about freewill, the Westminster Confession of Faith says about freewill, and what every Calvinist Ive ever met says about freewill. Though its not nearly as esoteric and egghead as supralapsarianism vs. infralapsarianism. I dont want to convince anyone of a certain brand of Christianity. Would really like to read Against Calvinism, as Im still sorting through the havoc that Calvinism caused in my own spiritual life (or, at least, the version of it I latched on to). You should consider it though it is a pretty long video. Since so many Calvinists believe everything in this life is decreed, it would mean that God decreed you to write/create this blog from before the foundations of the world, so how can they object to you doing so? Tell othersthat such thinking hurts you but do not expect them to understand. Any small error can lead us on to some very large mistakes if we arent careful. Thanks. You can even put your feet up I dont mind! Prior to learning of the YRR thing, I actually tried to force my self to accept the thinking as presented by these men. Anyway, I am not talking doctrine here. Which of us sat down in total ignorance, started at Genesis, and came up with a belief system? I could not get past the point of believing that God had ordained my abuse until I discovered there was another way of putting the jigsaw together. ISTM, that the fundamental issue in abuse is betrayal. +++++++++++++++++. Like you, I only care about what scripture says. It is perfectly fine to disagree and to contend for our view of Scripture. Theres nothing wrong with pondering and wondering at the truths Jesus represents. If you mean that those that God does not elect to save will definitely be condemned yes, since there is no other way they can be saved, they, in a sense, are elected to be condemned for their sins. It is an incontrovertible fact that some parts of Calvinism have been used to hurt people. I will never forget hearing so many Christians actually try to reason that we have to accept, even rejoice, that this must have been Gods plan for these precious young people. These accusations are often followed by the fact that although they cant explain away the opposing verses, nonetheless they know their view is the truth. I am spelling out what is being taught, at least to my untrained ear, under the name of Calvinism, in hopes that we can all learn to: a)recognize where we are coming from, and b) respect those with very different takes on these things as brothers, sisters, and seekers. My theologys still up-in-the-air, and I dont care if it never comes down. But hes not saying that God is actively driving every aspect of that molecules behavior. Heal their parents broken hearts and lives? I, for one, *do* understand. At first, I thought I had missed something in my Christian walk. He wept at sin and cruelty and brutality.He died for sin, he doesnt stage it.Why would He plan the same terrible things that He died for? Going to church in the north during those days was different. I can know that such a rule/principle is wrong because Jesus said the two central commands are to love God above all and neighbor as self, and then he called the rest of the Bible, all the laws and principles to be an addendum to those central two laws. The crazy cycle can lead to suicide or walking away from God entirely. If it does, then Im find with that. Joel B. Arminianism answers some of questions for me, not all of them. It simply makes it harder for people who are trying to recover from abuse, and continue to believe that God is good and loves them, to want to engage in a search for Truth. Ive lost track of the number of times in blog comments where it has been insisted that it means that we are as bad as we can be. Should the conversation be halted? I think this is a bigger issue than Calvinism- its one fundamental to Christianity. people who call themselves Calvinist have never really read Calvin. Im not saying thats being done intentionally- that is why Im seeking to clarify what I (and others with similar beliefs) believe. In fact, I've heard him preach stuff that would set Calvinists' hair (and beards) on fire. This never seemed hard to understand to me. These leaders are not MY leader, and they are not the leaders of the men and women at my church. I guess what Im trying to say is: No one forces any of us to comment; but once we do we are obligated to defend our ideas. All the Catholic and Orthodox traditions, major liturgical Protestant groups like Lutheran and Anglican, and the Arminian/Methodist/Holiness line, which would include many Charismatics, Non-denominational, etc. It sounds like you are making a systematic presentation of theology the gospel. I disagree on some points with everyone I respect. Now heres the thing, In Christ Alone is one of my favorite songs. But there are reasons not to make it an issue. Recent Arminians include Charles Finney, Dwight Moody, Billy Graham, Rick Warren and most other "mainline" preachers and evangelists. Yes, Nouthetic Counseling and a lot of teachers have given this impression, but they are wrong. And when hubby realized he was a sinner in need of forgiveness, he knew nothing about Calvinism or Arminismhe just called himself a believer. I dont know that any of the venues get one closer to God than the others. . I am neither. Can they wrestle with it on their own? This reminds me of what the guy in the videos (Refuting Calvinism video series) was saying in one video. I do believe that some brands have harmful elements that bring extra despair as if every day life doesnt bring enough. And since they realize that their belief is based on purely subjective interpretations of scripture that require severe qualificationwell, much easier to get you to just concede their premises by couching them in theologically nebulous, but emotionally attractive (and manipulative), platitudes. We were just grateful to be around otherChristians. It wasnt until they tried to recruit me to take an $85.00 course to learn to speak in tongues that I actually started studying my Bible. But the guy still strikes me as the I have Everything figured out! Believe me, Ive tried. I agree with that perspective as well. Ive tried to suss out how a good, all powerful God can exist at the same time as evil, and I just dont have an answer. As Ive said, I dont even like the word Calvinist. Online, of course, its much harder to gauge actually, impossible, since you have no idea who is reading what youre writing. From the Calvinist point of view, this part of their doctrine is the one that they can use to get along with . 96:3; John 17:1 ). FWIW, I dont consider any Arminian (see link to chart above) a non-believer. Maybe Im wrong on that. Its also what attracts many people to Calvinism nice boxes for everything, and rules connecting those boxes. And God obviously held back from rescuing me for reasons that I do not yet understand. He discusses the rogue molecule that people bring up here a lot and says that if a single molecule where outside of Gods power, then it could thwart his will. Admittedly, Im not famous enough to have followers trying to define Bulbeckism. And on occasion theyll even claim to love you, and to be rebuking you for your own good in order to bring you back to a more Biblical perspective. Jesus statement that my food is to do the will of him who sent me applies in our context. Roger Olson 23. of one. I want you to try to make the distinction between disagreeing strongly with what you say and believe, and disagreeing strongly with YOU. I honestly dont know.) Be prepared though, reading The Institutes is a difficult undertaking. I think I stated why above. Three of their principal concerns were believer's baptism, sectarian withdrawal from society, and religious liberty. Maybe I need to be corrected here: I have made the assumption that meticulous sovereignty (God has ordained every word that leaves my mouth, for example) is a tenet of calvinism because I hear it preached and defended vociferously from the reformed camp. I dont know if that helps or confuses- I wish I could have quoted more. I know it bothers you when you feel a belief is misrepresented. Ive lost track of the number of times in blog comments where it has been insisted that it means that we are as bad as we can be. Jeff B. thurgood marshall school of law apparel Projetos; bubble buster 2048 town Blog; cell defense the plasma membrane answer key step 13 Quem somos; how to make a good elder scrolls: legends deck Contato; I will not monopolize the conversation..I apologize for my run on posts. @ Julie Anne: I err on the side of allowing too much now, just because the value of finally being able to have a voice is so huge! This sort of stuff is bad and will cause an increase in problems within the church universal. document.getElementById( "ak_js_1" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); Enter your email address to follow this blog and receive notifications of new posts by email. And I will not say I could bebecause many of us understand that once we concede that men and women cannot know truth, then there is only one thing left to decide who gets to wield Gods authority on earth, because reason and logically reconcilable ideas have no place in truth: violence. Again, living in a 3 dimensional world, that makes little sense. In that thread on JAs site, even when I tried to pull out, it felt like I was getting pulled back in. Itook to reading Calvin, Sproul, Edwards, Grudem, Piper, et al. Never, once, have I ever entertained such a suggestions about my Calvinist brothers and sisters. It was populated by extremely insecure . But it is you, a man like myself, my companion, my close friend, with whom I once enjoyed sweet fellowship at the house of God, as we walked about among the worshippers. And heres 2400+ pages of PROOF! And would appeal to organization freaks with OCD who crave To Be Absolutely Right? When RC said their are no rogue molecules in the universe, that implies to me that God directs even the smallest action, including the tongue. who needs systems & neat little boxes? And it wouldnt matter to me if what the person said was true or not. All I can say is that I do the best I have with the mind Ive been given. The reformed assume the posture that they alone safeguard Gods honor. In fact, Ive probably used that word less in the previous 14 years than I have this last year interacting online. We didn't care if wewere charismatic, Baptist or coffee house hippies. Your voice is missing! I try to keep debates in check on the blog and steer away from them as my blog is supposed to be a safe place. They are part of what it means to be human. Your voice is missing! @ Argo: It's because Caleb was allegedly involved in multiple sexual relationships while on staff at daddy's church and he was, The Gospel Coalition now says not everyone can be a missionary. Dee, thank you so much for asking for prayers for my son-in-law! Yet why do I still love Jesus, the Bible and read so many Christian authors? There appears to be a loss of respect for those who are not Calvinist in their thinking. I am going to quote liberally from Sprouls book Truths We Confess, Vol 1 about this section of WCF. Thank you, thank you, for getting it right! But maybe there is just too much pain and hurt for that to be possible. LOLGod works in mysterious and wonderful ways! That is biblical. Now I have a place to send the Calvin debates and can keep the other threads relatively Calvin debate-free. @ Nick Bulbeck: Our sinful human nature craves it. Jimmy Draper. Paul teaches that it is in God that we live and move and have our being (Acts 17:28), Page 80: He said I was wrong. If all that they know are talking points, then it is hard to back them up. Id like to comment on one: Accept that Calvinists find peace in trusting that God has orchestrated even the specific tragedies in life. Your next sentence is They do not understand why this brings others great pain.. 8. It is not love to push Calvin. (Okay, Calvin-haters, have at me for this unforgivable understatement. Ive been lurking through out this discussion. And of course, that is just RC Sproul, though I do know this idea of primary and secondary causes has been around for a while and is not primarily a Calvinist idea. Bad theology dishonors God and hurts people. One section was exploring happiness. They tend to become kings when in power too long. Sproul Steve Lawson Voddie Bachham Wayne Grudem People Guilty Of Greatly Spreading The False "Free Will" Gospel: Bill Bright Billy Graham Charles Finney Church Discipline What makes anyone think that we are going to solve it in a Bible verse war? This is what Calvinists need to come to terms with. Thank you, thank you, for getting it right! So Sad. etc. Anywaythats fine. But, if, during an online conversation about Calvinism, someone writes that the discussion is disturbing to him/her, certain questions arise beyond the obvious point that its wrong to attack that person: Should the conversation be halted? Does not a little yeast leaven the whole batch? As far as truth is concerned, I believe that it reflects what the Bible says is the result of Adams sin. Once we agree that all ideas have the exact same chance of being wrongwe have merely held the door open for ANOTHER, and even more sinister and vicious, arbiter of truth to be released: the power of the keys, which is nothing more than the power of DESTRUCTIONand with this, the powers that be continue to be the powers that be. Addressing what many evangelical Christians are concerned about todayso-called "new Calvinism," a movement embraced by a generation labeled as "young, restless, Reformed" Against Calvinism is the only book of its kind to offer objections from a non-Calvinist perspective to the current wave of Calvinism among Christian youth. 1911. Why does a house wife bring more glory to God than a female scientist who wins a Nobel prize for her work? I am a Christian. We each probably believe that the venue we hold to is the best and most accurate. It is used to define gender roles, the age of the earth, eschatology, and election. Calvin is a little deep to get through, not to mention that the language structure is about 500 years old and not written in English. I never minded using it in the past because it was just a shorthand for my views on what it means to be saved by grace; I wasnt really arguing with anyone, and I figured as shorthand, it was alright. It stopped making sense when God began to show me in many profound ways that He loves me. I was open. CALVIN! Could the person have simply avoided it and gone to someplace else without even making the comment? He is a loving man in spite of the baloney flung his way. Why the pessimism? It was your comment about illogic that got me to thinking. I cant explain it, but the very thought of it is a testimony to His love for us ALL. I witnessed a weird detachment with this thinking, and people almost having to downplay love or relationship with others. Notice the implicit point: only THEY really bring glory to God. That Cals portray Cal in so many ways, even on the same points, adds another layer of confusion to the conversation for me. There is too much work to be done. Then I checked the remaining word-count: well over 600,000. Have you forgotten his evangelism tours where there were great multitudes of rebaptisms? Many of us had grown up in non-Christian households and did not know many Christians. And if we go to ourselves, were going to get something like what elastigirl wrote above. They may, and most probably do, differ on other areas of theology but at least in soteriology, they do not hold to what is commonly known as the Doctrines of Grace or TULIP. J. Vernon McGee 19. Many of us, view double predestination to be in great conflict with the character of God as He presents Himself in scripture. Hence, your free will is categorically subject to Gods absolute control (meaning, God allowing is functionally the exact same thing as Him not allowing; anything that happens happens as a direct function of his will, either via that positive (allowing) or the negative (not allowing)in either case, your free will is utterly under Gods sovereign control. Mark Driscoll, John Piper and Tim Keller megachurch preachers and important evangelical authors are all Calvinist. The volumes below reflect Baptist beliefs and convictions, yet non-Baptists read many of these well-reviewed volumes as well. Much of what I am reading here involves debating or defining what Calvin wrote, etc. Most churches teach Arminian theology.
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